Genesys engineer - how is your life in your country?

[Timur Karimov]

Hi there!

Let's talk about our life? I mean -  about our professional life. What is you company profile? How you found the Genesys experience for you professional ..hmm..cost? During the curent financial crisis  - did you have more work load on old job? Or may be you have the new opportunity to start the new part of life? What about primitive compare with whole people around you ?

Well, try to start this conversation - in our region Genesys expert is so closed area ...same times it's looks like the religions =) I am serious. Genesys have the several big installation for last 6-7 yers and most this is supported by ALU PS. But last two years numbers of installation is growing by mid- and small size company witch is not intrested for ALU. Or maybe ALU lost the level of proficiency, and number of Genesys engineer what is not ALU worker is growing too. But most of them is are self-study man.  And as result all is concentrated on area witch have the direct action on they job function - like the IRD/Voice Studio, ETL/DMA e.g. - i mean mostly end user spec not the deployment or support. And you truly understand they employers - Genesys cours so expansive but also they need the decide an issue with visas, payd for long distance air travel, paid for a hotel and much, much more  - why? Most company would rather the external, outsourcing support - like our company.
This situation defines life for me - I am pleased to note that last year work load go up to the heavens! And this is good part of my speech =)

But all coins have two side =( And the dark side  - i lose the financial satisfaction. I mean the more job mast be equal more coins, is it not right?

Well..how about you ?

[tony]

Thank you Timur - an interesting and informative post...

I think all of your points are valid - and you have asked, so I will tell you...

I am from England and I have a background in military telecomms and IT Networks - I worked at Ford's for a few years and they had the sense to train up permanent employees, rather than pay for contractors (although they have changed, recently...)  So, I became a certified Genesys engineer.  I also needed to be an expert in volume reporting, WfM, Outbound, VTO(!), DART and various other Solutions, since they were deployed within the company and I was fortunate enough to be sent on the training.  I guess this is different when you are an employee rather than a contractor, since your employer would pay for the training... Then I moved over to T-Mobile (UK) and got more training paid for by them....

Yes, the training is expensive and it is not easy - and for a good reason; you really do need to know what you are doing, since a lot of business is reliant on the technology and, if it were made too easy and anyone could do it - when it really matters and you need someone who can do the job, the only way to be sure of that is a lot of hard training and lots of hands on experience.  There are no substitutes or short cuts - not even my Rough Guides...!

Companies do realize that they have a choice between training staff and buying in experience - and it really is as simple as doing the sums and seeing which is cheaper.  The problems start when [i]local[/i] support is needed - not only on a generic level, but in understanding the [i]local[/i] deployment methods and the complexity which has been applied in those Solutions.  That requires time, even if you are an expert...

Genesys have (always) made it clear that their Solutions are orientated towards larger/national installations.  It does not make fiscal sense for a mid- or small-sized company to use components which have no upper limits... it would be like buying a Jaguar XJS when you only need a unicycle...   I seem to remember that Genesys did once offer a cut-down version ("Genesys in a box") but I think it was discontinued (probably because it was too much effort to try to support so many small installations)

I do not think Genesys PS is a matter for ALU.  ALU have bought the company (Genesys) and they (ALU) have their own way of running companies (very little public advertising, etc.) but I do not believe it extends to Genesys, as a [i]Professional Service[/i].  I may be wrong but this is my experience...  Genesys are quite (happy) to buy expertise to "sell" as PS for their own company and that works very well for the Agencies involved.  It is clear to me that very few Genesys PS staff are actually employees - the vast majority are contractors...

Lastly, since I am not a contractor then I cannot comment on how much contract work is out there (in Europe).  But I do know that the larger telcos are no longer paying big$$$ for Genesys engineers - they would rather train their staff in-house to do individual jobs (such as Reporting Expert or WfM Expert, etc.)  This makes sense since it costs much much less to do this - and the staff also benefit from the training.  Of course, there is still a need for Genesys PS and qualified Genesys engineers - but they would be brought in only for the period of time required to deliver Projects or Programs, not to conduct the day-to-day tasks...

I enjoy this debate - would anyone else like to join in...?

Tony

[Gulden_NL]

I am an Enterprise Architect with 14 years of experience designing and deploying Genesys (I remember when the Genesys parties were 50-75 people in the San Francisco Bay area and GForce wasn't even a thought in anyone's mind. Half Moon Bay, ouch! Think that was around 1996 or '97)  I've worked globally, but currently live in the SW part of the USA.

Genesys under ALU has cut Professional Services down to the bone; they just don't exist anymore and the deep experts in each component are long gone.  Genesys is expecting their partners to provide these services.  Unfortunately it's my experience that there are very, very few partners that can provide value at any cost.  I am in the process of identifying one or more Prof Svcs partners to assist with a very large deployment; I am finding a lot of fake C.V.s where Genesys is mentioned many times, but the supposed Genesys "expert"  demonstrates that they don't understand Genesys architecture one bit.  "BZZZZZZZT!  You're sacked before I hire you!"    I am also looking at recent, former Genesys PS employees, but unfortunately finding that even they don't have deep experience and skills.  The kind of people I want left Genesys three years ago or longer.  These were the people that worked 5 or more years in Genesys PS.

Genesys training is generally just OK.  It's good as a starter for someone that has never spent time with Genesys but knows telephony.  But seriously, there is more experience and knowledge on this board than you'll ever see delivering training for Genesys.  Ask the tough questions in training and you're going to be waiting after class a long time if you think you will get an answer! 

And don't get me started about Genesys experience with new releases. Try to find anyone in Genesys PS that has been through hands on training for any of the 8.x solutions! 

[gustav]

What Guilden_NL says is very accurate in North America.  Genesys is pushing the PS work to partners and thinning out their internal PS workforce.  Partners will have to become a preferred or Gold partner to be the go-to company for PS work.  If you are looking to staff up, now is a good time to look for Genesys PS resources that have been trimmed or looking to move on.  Finding skilled PS contractors or employees is difficult, but asking detailed questions and conducting a throughout interview is critical. 

That being said, the demand for skilled Genesys Professionals in the US is very strong and rates that contractors can demand are very high.  I’ve been consulting for 7 years in North America and would be curious to see how the market for Genesys Professionals in Europe or Asia is

[John Doe]

Where do I start from a European view? First is to post anonymously!

I have started to see the Genesys move to external PS sources, why? The cost of PS here is absolutely mad - you have to be mad to pay for it! Usually the standard of [b]external[/b] PS is very poor. If you pay big bucks then you deserve to get receive experienced\trained people - not so here.

My point two is that the Partners program is messed up. I have a quite a few years Genesys experiance working for different systems integrators. Myself with some good experianced friends want to come together to be a Genesys partner and offer PS - we are technical people not salesmen so Genesys are not interested. All they are interested in is Partners that can sell licenses.
  In my day job I've helped some Partners put together some winning bids for big upgrade projects in the last 6 months. Problem is they have NO skilled Genesys engineers themselves. WTF! Everything is down to price not capability!

Everything is price, price, price. Experiance has very little value here even for Genesys themselves.

I have other views but don't want to get into even deeper trouble so I won't go on.

JD

[tony]

Ah - I can see that we are moving from the [i]thoughts of an engineer [/i] to the [i]thoughts of how business operates...[/i]

Most of you probably know that I am a permanent member of staff within a UK mobile telco.  I have my own reservations for using external PS or any external resource for our Genesys Solutions - however this is not because they do not have the right skillset - they probably do.  The problem I have seen manifesting itself is only apparent [i]if [/i] you take on contractors for longer than necessary; they become not only a part of the furniture but they can begin to make things rather, erm, difficult to manage.  Of course, if they are working for another (SI) company or Genesys partner, they will also be looking around to see what other opportunities exist to offer their services - but that's not the problem...

Taking on contractors or bringing in PS for extended periods of time [i]can [/i] culminate in contractors running the Solutions, rather than the permanent members of staff doing this work (of course, the other side of things is that you have no skilled permanent staff to do the work in the first place - and that's another story..!)  You are then faced with short-term fixes for strategic solutions - break, fix, break, fix, break, fix... contractors by nature are concentrating on the job in hand - a project or program to deliver something within the Genesys Framework.  The [i]strategic [/i] viewpoint rarely comes into their head -[i] "I will look good if I fix this quickly..."[/i] is [b]not [/b] the same as [i]"I need to fix this so that it doesn't break in the future..." [/i]  It's a different mindset.

In my opinion, then - you need well trained, good permanent staff looking after the strategic and long-term goals of the future of the Genesys Solutions and you take on PS or contracting staff for tactical reasons or for projects or programs that have a definative end date.  This also means your not paying sky-high rates [i]all [/i] of the time.

In light of the recession, some customer>companies have taken this on board and are beginning to offer contractors the opportunity to become permanent, or contracts are teminated and the work is being handed back to permanent staff - just how it should be!

The points being made that [i]good [/i] PS and/or Genesys contractors are highly paid, highly sought after and thin on the ground is true -they [i]are [/i] gold dust.  The fact that Partners, SI's and perhaps even Genesys themselves don't have that many "spare" only perpetuates those facts...  You can win a bid to provide services and staffing but you then have to go find them - and *then* you find out how much they cost... and that's business!

Oh - I really didn't mean to rant and rave but I think I just have!

Tony

[mark]

I can only echo what TT says.
I am proof of the move to make contractors permanent, having just made the jump back to perm myself.

[Happy_Traveler]

Wow - TT, I felt a bit offended reading your post regarding the mindset of "contractors". As an individual working for a certified PS partner of Genesys I know that when I come in to offer consulting I absolutely try to provide solutions that are not simply quick, short term fixes but sustainable, intelligent technology recommendations. My personal experience is that if a solution is implemented which is not appropriate or short sighted its generally because a customer has made the choice to go the "cheap" route. In cases such as those I can only be as blunt as possible (which I'm very capable of) regarding their poor vision and in most cases fortitude to fight the good fight.

With that said I do agree that bringing in contractors for extended periods of time without clear objectives is a major mistake that I see way too often. When your bringing in a specialist you can only expect that person will be a high dollar resource. So its critical to put proper thought into exactly what you expect from this individual and to have clearly defined deliverables with a definitive endpoint identified. I see Genesys PS use this concept of a TAM way too much. Generally its a position where you have no clear objectives other then to be an "official" Genesys onsite resource. If your a customer looking at bringing a TAM onboard your vision on how you plan on supporting and sustaining your garden of Genesys solutions is not being well thought out.

If your a small to mid-sized company, finding an experienced, legit, business partner of Genesys that offers creative support packages which include PS hours for miscellaneous changes can be a quality solution if your not looking to bring on permanent resources. This offers the peace of mind knowing if something breaks there is someone there to fix it without the commitment to having a permanent dedicated resource. With built in hours for PS it also offers the opportunity to leverage an experienced professional who can typically take care of small projects in a fraction of the time a permanent resource might.

And if its the right partner TT - they will not only be quick to deliver but intelligent with the design!

[tony]

Hi Happy_Traveller!

OK - in context, then... I am not saying that Genesys PS [i]per say [/i] works on tactical fixes - what I am saying is that, in my experience, there are contractors who will look for a quick fix, based on the facts provided to them.  Sometimes, it takes more than a brief overview to understand and/or interpret a problem and see it for what it is - rather than what a business [i]think [/i] it is...  the difference being that a contractor is usually on the outside, looking in and a permanent Genesys employee lives with the problem, day to day.

The other part to my post is that you can keep contractors for too long - and still they are in the mindset of being on the outside looking in, rather than living the problems...

I only wish everyone in the contracting world were of the same mindset as you - again, in my own experience, they are not - sadly!

Tony